JasonGirl from The Taming of the Shrew and I are going at it again, with the way we interpret words, this time we are going to be talking about whether there should be sexual intimacy after a discipline punishment? I took CON and JasonGirl is taking the PRO road for this debate.
The question I am addressing is: Is it counterproductive to have sex right after a punishment? What are some things that could make the punishment non-productive and could this lead to bad behavior from the HOH and Tih. This article is not meant to sway your option, as with anything in a DD relationship it is just another way of looking at an issue.
I chose that CON side of the argument because I think that having sex/intercourse right after a punishment can send a mixed message. Let's face it, punishments are not fun for the HOH or Tih. That is why they are called punishments and not play. Punishments are meant to change/correct a behavior. And for some it gives the Tih the opportunity to forgive theirself. So, I feel that it is crucial that I do not send mixed messages during this time. But with anything that includes a naked bottom there is always going to be some kind of intimacy involved.
In this example the TIh is a female. Only because that is what I can easily associate with.
The first example is a young couple that is just starting out in their DD relationship. They talked about and agreed upon what would happen if any of their rules were broken. But the time has come and now she is faced with her first discipline spanking. The couple goes through their ritual of the spanking. But this time is different it is for punishment.
Afterwards he wants to have sex with her and she could also have these feelings. But remember she has just been punished and is very submissive and may not be in the right frame of mind to tell her husband no or say that she is not interested in having sex with him because all she really wants is to be held and told that everything is all right.
So let’s say they have sex. Is she feeling and reflecting on the punishment or is she feeling the warmth and connection to the interment connection of the sex? Or is she now unknowingly connecting sex and punishment in her head. Let’s say that she is connecting/associating sex with her punishments. Or worse yet she is thinking that sex is bad because it is part of her punishment.
The second example is when she wants to have a romp in the hay with her husband and he says no that he doesn't want to right then. So she knows that if she is disciplined, right after that she will get to have sex. She now plots on doing something that is against their rules making sure that she gets caught. Now both parties are not realizing that he is caught up in a vicious cycle.
Once again that leads to another question. How do you prevent bad habits or feelings from developing when dealing with this very sensitive time in a DD relationship…What I would consider to be appropriate is that after the punishment has occurred that you would have a aftercare procedure set up. This is to reassure your spouse that everything is now right again and that they have been forgiven or received the proper punishment for whatever mistake or behavior needed to be addressed…
I feel that once the couple have had a chance to calm down and reassure each other, and maybe even talk about the punishment and what each party was feeling before and after. Then it would be ok to engage in a loving and fun filled act of pleasure.
Bob
Bob
I think one has to realise that everyone has different views and different interpretations of Dd. For some, their rules may be so strict and severe that discipline and sex are never contemplated. For some, the 'submissive' partner may feel either too angry, too sore, or too upset to contemplate sex. For some, sex as an expression of their love for one another, follows naturally on from any type of spanking, including a disciplinary spanking.
ReplyDeleteFor myself, conflict and mixed messages don't even enter into it. Sometimes we do, and sometimes we don't. It's as simple as that. I am not a child, and my husband doesn't talk to or discipline me as such. Whilst I am aware that some couples prefer to keep sex out of the equation, I see no problem in lovemaking if it is your desire to do so. In fact, even if I am feeling some anger or indignation about what has taken place, Dan seems to know just how to bring me around to his viewpoint.
Furthermore, I would be very worried if I thought the purveyor of discipline was withholding sex after a spanking on the pretext that the submissive partner might get the wrong idea. After all, the person who is doing the spanking should most definitely not be angry, merely purposeful and reminding the TiH of boundaries. I can't off hand think of anyone who would wish to be disciplined for the purpose of sex, except people who enjoy more extreme 'play'.
I think, on balance, I have to say "horses for courses" my friend.
Hugs
Ami
Good morning Ami
DeleteIt seems that I have struck a nerve on this topic, I figured I would because of the way I approached the subject and that is also why I put up the declaimer that my thoughts are just that my thoughts.
I am glad you wrote Ami because your thought are important to me.
Bob
Sometimes we do, sometimes we don't. Even after a discipline or even maintenance and I've come to my senses I feel clingy to my owner and I want him and he wants me. I don't say anything tho because its not my place. I will let him make the move as I always have. The only thing I might do is kiss him a certain way that I know gets him going - but at the same time that doesn't always work either. But for us, DD, TTWD, TiH,D/s has brought us more closer. When a owner/husband/HOH is expressing his wishes and they are disobeyed he feels his authority kick in and that makes him feel manly, which he is and should be. And as a wife/submissive we feel more cherished and feminine because our HoH took us in hand and showed us his authority. This by itself leads to closeness and in some cases of discipline, not always, love making. :)
ReplyDeleteThis is just the way things are with us. :)
-Jane
One more thing.......Because the husband took control of his wife, his masculinity has come out and they feel powerful and they are, and the wife feels vulnerable and this can lead to erotic feelings even if you are being disciplined. But again, that is how it is in our home. Sometimes it happens and sometimes it doesntl. :)
DeleteHello Jane
DeleteFirst off thank you for replying to my post not once but twice and becoming a follower too.
I am nether hot or cold about this subject I knew it was going to be a touchy subject but I took the con because JasonGirl drew the long straw :)
Bob
If you're spanked and it's over, then it's over. What happens afterwards is not related to the punishment. At least, in my mind it shouldn't be. We are adults aren't we, I'm sure we know the difference.
ReplyDeleteHello sunnygirl
DeleteI agree with you 100% but someone had to take the negative stand on it to have a pro and con subject :)
Bob
I have found it very easy to separate my punishment sessions from our "making love" together. Although both making love and his punishments are based on his love for me, I know precisely where the line is drawn. I have found, that in addition to his extensive aftercare, that I need to "immerse" myself into my husband and offer him as much as I can of myself, in essence confirming to him how much I love and need him, be it through punishment or offering him my soul. I believe he also needs this reassurance from me, for I know he does not like punishing me, and often comes out of these sessions as heavily hearted as I do. The after-care, including making love, is dramatically for the both of us.
ReplyDeleteHello Pippi
DeleteThank you for responding to this post
Bob
Hey Bob,
ReplyDeleteThis is something I struggled with in the early days, the notion that sex shouldn't follow discipline. Now, if it happens it happens. As Sunny said, once the discipline is over it's over. The issue has been dealt with and there is forgiveness. AFter discipline I am always left feeling very vulnerable and submissive and need his reassurance and aftercare is a very intimate and connected time for us.
Hugs,
Roz
Greetings Roz
DeleteYour word are true as were every one else above that has written their thoughts about this subject
Bob
Hello Bob,
ReplyDeleteThank you for taking the con side to help us think.
As I said on Jason's Girl's blog. For me the holding, making love, together time afterwards shows the forgiveness. There are times when he has walked away after and I felt unforgiven and lonely. We don't always make love, that's usually up to him, but I do need to be held.
When we first started this I ordered a book and asked him to read it as I couldn't answer all of his questions. He has never done a lot of research but did read some of that book. The text stated that you should NEVER make love after. I found that he would start making love and then feel the need to tell me that he wouldn't do this every time and that he had been serious and that I had been punished and was to remember why. In short, he thinks now that he is doing it wrong if we make love ( but that doesn't usually stop him!)
I think it is obviously up to each couple (and I think that book should never have been written in that way)!
J
Hello Janey
DeleteYes it is up to the couple involved how they want to conduct their relationship and no one else's.
Bob
I'm going to paste an edited version of the comment I made to Jasonsgirl's post. My apologies for writing a 'book'. Also that, because, blogger doesn't allow me to post this as one comment, I have to split it into two.
ReplyDeletePART 1: -
For me it's always been the case that the "over" when it comes to punishment means finished and done with. Therefore, in my case, any conditions that he placed on the aftermath would make me feel that, in his eyes, it wasn't *really* finished and that he was effectively extending the punishment. This would more or less negate what, for us, is one of the chief benefits of DD as a tool that enables us to deal with something once and for all, find mutual closure and move on forward. Since in my last relationship, which was not DD, I had my fill of the 'vanilla' situation in which the same old things were dragged up again and again to create and maintain barriers between us, this is a tool which I value greatly.
We don't ever 'schedule' what will happen when punishment is over and we 'reconnect' by whatever means feel natural and right at the time, (this is non-sexual just as often as it is sexual), so I don't really understand the view that your chosen method of reconnection at any one time after the event can create some kind of pleasant and/or erotic association with something that was unmistakably punishment and which is in any case already in the past.
As to whether there is erotic association overall and, if so, whether that is inappropriate or causes confusion, I can only say that, for me, the actual punishment is unmistakably just that and nothing else and, even though I'm a 'spanko' by nature, I really can't imagine how anyone could possibly mistake the completely different atmosphere and ingredients of a punishment spanking for those that prevail in erotic play.
However, once the punishment is over, there are entirely different feelings involved. It is then that I begin to appreciate the care and love of his dominance/leadership and his involvement in taking care of me. I'm not at all ashamed to admit that in my adult intimate relationship, these things, combined with the physical aftermath of heat and sting, are factors that I find sexually pleasing and which for me are 'hot'. Since, in my opinion, the multiple factors of closeness and attraction it creates is another of the great benefits of DD, this is not something I would personally want to deny or change.
(Part 2 follows in a second comment....)
PART 2: -
ReplyDeleteIn response to the hypothetical situations you describe:
In the first instance, a situation in which he initiated post punishment sex without exploring or taking into account her feelings and in which she felt obliged to acquiesce out of submissive feelings or duty, even though she didn't really feel like it, would to me be a little like a 'consensual non-consent' spanking in DD. I can only say that, in my case, after punishment, we go wherever our *mutual* feelings lead us and we've never yet had any problem in 'reading' each other at such times. I will stick my neck out and also say that, only if there *is* very serious miscommunication, which would definitely be something that needed to be addressed, could it be the case that "reconnective" sex feels like punishment.
Just to be very clear on this, I am not referring here to the very different situation in which some form of sex, like the *requirement* to give a blow job, is actually incorporated as a *part* of the punishment. This may work for some people but, for me, this *would* be using sex as punishment and it *would* create negative associations.
As to whether I'm still "reflecting on the punishment"; reflection is exactly why we often *finish* the actual punishment 'ritual' with a short period of time out or corner time and a concluding discussion. (I'd say "debrief" if it didn't conjure up entirely the wrong impression - insert smiley here). However, after that point, he's satisfied that I'm in no doubt that the matter has been addressed and lesson has been learned and he doesn't *require* me to continue to dwell on what has been resolved and is now firmly in the past. So no, I definitely don't feel any inappropriate association is created between punishment and sex, unless you count my satisfaction and pleasure in the fact that we have this very effective way to deal with the problems in our relationship, put them behind us and immediately resume our loving connection.
In the second hypothetical scenario, I feel that, if it were necessary for the submissive partner to resort to dishonest toxic bratting" in order to provoke a sexually motivated spanking, that would be indicative of serious problems in her understanding of the purpose of DD and perhaps problems in the relationship in general. While I understand that bratting can occur when consistency is poor and disciplinary and maintenance needs are not being properly met, in my experience the motive is seldom sexual. Where there is a need for purely erotic spanking (and to me, although this can be tied up with enjoyment of the Dom/sub dynamic, it's separate from the tool of DD) and the TIH is a person who doesn't feel comfortable about asking, non toxic bratting in the form of gentle teasing and humorous provocation usually works pretty effectively. I do realise that this can go too far at times, but in my experience that's rare.
Finally, to address your final point, I think a large part of the reason why we seem to be at odds on this might be because we define the point at which a punishment ends rather differently. To me, the punishment 'ritual' begins with the pre spanking discussion/ lecture and ends after the post spanking time out/reflection, closure discussion and non sexual aftercare. Anything that happens naturally *after* that is not connected with, or influenced by, the punishment. However I see that, in your blog post you define some of those things as taking place *after* the punishment and not as a part of the whole.
Ros
hello Ros
DeleteYou explained yourself well checkmate
Bob
Thank-you for your other side. I love a good debate and can learn something from both sides. I am new to the DD/TIH/HOH though have been married for 12 years my husband and I have never been closer then we are since we've stepped over the DD threshold. We, like most have said on here, do have sex afterwards to "reconnect" but just as often do not. It is crucially important I believe that the HOH makes sure there are absolutely no hard feelings that either he holds or that she may have before reconnecting sexually. that is where I think lines could be blurred. but I think as long as the spanking was done with love, acceptance, forgiveness afterwards (on both parts..because she also has to forgive herself) and all negative feelings are laid to rest it is a wonderful way to show your love. Thanks again for your great post. I just joined your site and look forward to reading more!
ReplyDeletehello Lisa Lynn
DeleteThank you for your comments.
Sometimes it is just tough playing the devils advocate LOL
Bob
I leave this up to my husband. My husband still has a hard time with punishment. I can tell by the way he tends to let me get by with things, and how he acts if he finally does punish me. He is extra kind and he tends to try to make everything easier. For example, He may punish me for not doing the things that I should (housework, etc) and then after he spanks me, he wants to take me out to dinner, so I don't have to cook. I never act as if I didn't deserve the spanking, because usually I have deserved it several times before it ever happens. Sometimes my husband will initiate sex before I'm even sure if a punishment is over. I think it is out of his need to feel that everything is ok in our world. Sometimes there is no sex, but there is always a gentleness. I don't discourage it, because I know that he is still dealing with whether punishing me is the right thing to do. Now that I have "come out" as a "spanko" (after over 30 years of marriage), there is almost always a little bit of spanking in our foreplay, but usually just in the beginning. The swats are not much different from the warm up swats of a punishment, which are with his hand and are not gentle. He has no problem with administering those swats. Maybe that is TMI, I don't know. I guess I'm just pointing out, that it's the real punishment (the pain) he has a problem with. The paddle hurts, but it doesn't take much of a swat for it to hurt. Because he knows this, he does not use much force at all. I think if he was a little less gentle, the effectiveness would last a little longer. I sometimes wish he would, but then I'm glad that he loves me enough to want everything to be ok. I feel like I've rambled but it is 4:20am, and a little too early to make too much sense. God bless you and yours, -Belle L.
ReplyDeleteHi Belle L
Deletethank you for your post it was well written
Bob
There is a very simple solution that can work for most people. We believe that intimacy after a spanking is very natural part of reconciliation, though it is not required every time.
ReplyDeleteHowever, when intimacy does occur, the "bottom" must agree to take some number (say a dozen) very hard strokes with the cane within 15 minutes after orgasm. That's neither long nor brutal but does deliver the disciplinary message. We don't know anyone who desires a spanking after orgasm, so it serves the dual purpose precisely.
In fact, this can be come a positive feedback loop. If the "bottom is then aroused again, the process can repeat. We've never known a third repeat to be necessary.
Good luck!
Hello Wallace
ReplyDeleteI have never heard nor thought of doing it that way. Doing a discipline spanking after sex, interesting
Bob